Luminous Emptiness – a Dzogchen / Mahamudra blog

Madhyamaka and Shentong – Vimalakirti and Manjushri

On 16/08/2004

Is Shentong not part of Madhyamaka?

This one is a bit tricky, as more or less all the schools claim that their highest view is in fact the highest madhyamaka view. So, the Shentongpas call their highest view in the tenet system ‘Great Madhyamaka’, and yet so do the Rangtongpas call theirs ‘Great Madhyamaka’, and so do the Prasangika-Madhyamakas. So very different views get called highest Madhyamaka by the various approaches in the Tibetan schools.

Madhyamaka and Shentong have complimentary roles

Does not Rangtong recognizes emptiness alone as ultimate nature of mind, while in Shengtong it is inseparability of emptiness and luminosity which is seen as ultimate nature of mind?

Whilst what you say is true, it’s not actually what I was communicating. I was making a different point, which is that for many Kagyu’s and indeed Nyingma’s, Madhyamaka method is seen as an exemplary method for clarifying the view, and Shentongpa view is seen as the prime view on which to base meditation. Just to reemphasise … why is this so ….?

Madhyamaka method enables you to cut away at your subtlety wrong views … so … it’s not this, it’s not that … keeping on cutting, cutting …. so that your view is gradually purified of gross mistakes, and progressively subtler mistakes … then, when you meditate, you take the Shentong view … and don’t fall into these errors (which are very easy to do when meditating from a Shentong perspective) because of the work you have done using Madhyamaka method. Does this help?

Neti Neti (not this, not this) Painting by Domen Logar

Madhyamaka and Rangtong

Are you not using Madhyamaka as another word for Rangtong, and Shentong is a Madhyamika view as well?

Yes, for most Kagyupa, Shentong is seen as the highest Madhyamika view (as per the comment above), though Rangtongpas would disagree.

Do I refer to Shentong as something outside of Madhyamika scope?

I hope this is now clear, it isn’t. Shentong is based on Madhyamaka, and uses Madhyamaka to cut away wrong views, whilst allowing a ‘positive’ view of the qualities of Buddha nature and enlightened mind, without straying into subtle error. Rangtong is something altogether different, also based on Madhyamaka, but different from it.

Avoiding Eternalism and Nihilism

Does one not need luminosity in order to just talk about emptiness? Like Milarepa said – the only way emptiness can experience itself is through its inherent luminosity?

Well, yes, but all Rangtongpas would strongly dissagree, which would include most Gelugs and Sakyas, and they attain realisations and enlightenment too, so I wouldn’t push too far and say they are wrong, more of the nature of different methods based on different views, which work better for different people.

Some of course say both Shentong and Rangtong are wrong …. and that both are subtle versions of Eternalism and Nihilism …. .but that is another discussion altogether!!!!!

Vimalakirti and Manjushri

Didn’t Vimalakirti make Manjushri’s words disappear as if they never happened, isn’t that the best expression of Emptiness?

Well, it’s been a few years since I read the sutra, but my recollection of it is that Vimalakirti kept noble silence in answer to the question, and that silence was described as deafening, and resounding with the truth. Of course, in a sense, silence falsifies the truth less than any speech ever can do, as it doesn’t fall into dualistic error.

But, for most people, speech is necessary, as a means to point towards the truth. Different people need different fingers pointing in different ways, to the same moon. Hence, Shentong, Rangtong, Kagyu, Gelug, Manjushri, Vimalakirti, and all!

Very best wishes to you … thank you for bringing up so many wonderful points which stimulate such discussion which I hope will be of some use in beings’ paths …..

Madhyamaka and Shentong – Beyond Thought

By Chodpa

On 16/08/2004

In Mahamudra

In response to a quote from a song of Milarepa, where:

Rechungpa experienced a glimpse of emptiness and felt lost, because there was nothing to hold on 🙂

Interestingly enough, this is precisely what Madhyamaka method leads to … the realisation that there is nothing whatsoever to hold onto, and whatever we turn to in our attempt to ground ourselves, that too is empty, and devoid of anything we could establish as a ground …

View is our wisdom, our way of seeing

In response to a comment that:

it is hard to tell where view starts and ends, and experience starts and ends.

As I’ve argued in my previous email, I would say that that is because View (Tawa) and experience are intimately related, because View is not an intellectual thing (though it can find intellectual expression), but is in fact our realisation, our wisdom, our means of ‘seeing’.

In response to the statement that:

Madhyamaka as part of Mahamudra practice is not a separate teaching or foundation or whatever – but rather one of the aspects of practice. It is the projection of experience into words and logical constructs, so to say.

Again, as mentioned in my previous post, I’d argue that Madhyamaka is indeed part of Mahamudra practice, one which is especially suited to clarifying View, and not just a projection of experience into words and constructs, but the skilful employment of words and constructs to engender realisation.

Madhyamaka takes reason to its limit and beyond

In response to the position that:

logic can always be defeated, as can reason, and therefore have no value by themselves in the spiritual path.

In response I guess I’d say that the point of Madhyamika method is in part a means to take reason or thinking to its limit and beyond, and lead the person to a place from which they can be led to direct perception.

It is taught that it is a mistake to foreshorten this process, and just ‘believe’ that it is impossible for thinking to grasp the truth of things. Because such a belief is a thought in itself, and one which is not a realisation. The realisation of the nature of thought and mind is one which comes with the seeing through of thought, not the acceptance of a thought which says thought is not enough … if you see?

However, I’d agree that there are many methods to this goal, but that traditionally, Kagyu teachings have given a significant role to Madhyamika methods, and not just Mahamudra methods.

Once again I must leave now .. and will reply to your most interesting points about Shentong in another post … till then,

very best wishes in the Dharma

Everything In Place

By Chodpa

On 16/08/2004

In Vajrayana

S’funny how from here, right now, it seems like everything is in place, is in exactly the right place!

The practice = Chod

The teachings = Mahamudra

The teacher = Shangpa Rinpoche

The lineage = Karma Kagyu

What more could I need?

Every circumstance that presents itself, whatever it is, I already have all that I need in relation to it. I don’t need to seek anything else, I’m fully equipped.

Each moment that unfolds it’s as if my teacher has given me something which is just what I need at that time, a special gift, the key to the door, and all I have to do is turn the key.

I don’t need to seek further instruction. I don’t need further practices. I don’t need to change my circumstances in life. Just how it is right now, with these tools, this View, this method … it’s all here.

Wow!

Just how blessed can one man be!!!!!!